Insights Into Life with a Disability with Ken Kunken

Welcome to Season 5, Episode 3 of Winning Isn't Easy. In this episode, we'll dive into the complicated topic of "Insights Into Life with a Disability with Ken Kunken."

Join attorney Nancy L. Cavey, a seasoned expert in disability claims, for a compelling conversation with Ken Kunken, a retired trial attorney who has lived with a disability since 1970. While playing college football that year, Ken suffered a catastrophic injury that left him paralyzed from the neck down. In this powerful episode of Winning Isn't Easy, Nancy sits down with Ken to discuss the realities of living with a long-term, life-changing disability. They explore how such an event reshapes life’s trajectory, influences interactions with the world and others, and, most importantly, how one can still build a fulfilling and meaningful life despite the challenges. Don’t miss this inspiring and insightful discussion.

In this episode, we'll cover the following topics, and more:

1 - How Did Your Injuries Change Your View of Yourself?

2 - How Did You Learn to Deal With People’s Perception of You, and Not the Reality of You?

3 - What Advice Would You Give to Someone Who Has a Life-Changing Injury?

Whether you're a claimant, or simply seeking valuable insights into the disability claims landscape, this episode provides essential guidance to help you succeed in your journey. Don't miss it.


Listen to Our Sister Podcast:

We have a sister podcast - Winning Isn't Easy: Navigating Your Social Security Disability Claim. Give it a listen: https://wiessdpodcast.buzzsprout.com/


Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

LINK TO ROBBED OF YOUR PEACE OF MIND: https://mailchi.mp/caveylaw/ltd-robbed-of-your-piece-of-mind

LINK TO THE DISABILITY INSURANCE CLAIM SURVIVAL GUIDE FOR PROFESSIONALS: https://mailchi.mp/caveylaw/professionals-guide-to-ltd-benefits

FREE CONSULT LINK: https://caveylaw.com/contact-us/


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Need help with your Long-Term Disability or ERISA claim? Have questions? Please feel welcome to reach out to use for a FREE consultation. Just mention you listened to our podcast.

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Please remember that the content shared is for informational purposes only, and should not replace personalized legal advice or guidance from qualified professionals.

Transcript

Nancy Cavey [00:00:00]:
 Foreign hey, I'm Nancy Cavey, national ERISA and IDI disability attorney. Welcome to Winning Isn't Easy. Before we get started, I've got to give you a legal disclaimer. This podcast is not legal advice. The Florida Bar association says I have to say this, and now that I've said it, nothing will ever prevent me from giving you an easy to understand overview of the disability insurance world, the games that carriers play, and what you need to know to get the disability benefits you deserve. So today we're going to be discussing insights into the life with disability and we're joined by our special guest, Ken Keuken. Ken, can you introduce yourself?
 
 Ken Kunken [00:00:52]:
 Sure. My name is Ken Kukin and I live on Long island in Rockland Center, Long island, and I'm a retired attorney.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:01:03]:
 Now you also are going to be talking to us about advice that you would give to someone who has had a life changing injury or medical condition as you've had, and vocational insights into disability. This is an issue that comes up in every one of my cases. My dad, for example, was a World War II combat vet in the Pacific and when he came back from the war, he joined the family insurance company and bought a disability insurance policy through USF and G, hoping he would never have to deal with a claim for disability. And unfortunately, when I was in junior high school, he was diagnosed with leukemia. So Ken, I watched him until the day I graduated struggle with disability, the change in his role from being the John Wayne breadwinner, if you will, to recognizing that he had to take care of his health because his health and his family came first. So I know that people like to understand what they're going to be facing and have an opportunity to speak with someone like you who has faced that challenge and done so brilliantly. So before we get started, we're going to take a quick break and then we're going to come back and have Ken tell us all about his story and where he is today.
 
 Speaker C [00:02:34]:
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 Nancy Cavey [00:03:00]:
 Welcome back to Winning Isn't Easy. Now we're going to be spending time with Ken and I've got 10 questions for him because I think he's got a lot of great insights. Before we did this podcast episode, he and I had a great discussion and I think he's got a lot of great things to tell us. So, Ken, please tell us your story.
 
 Ken Kunken [00:03:21]:
 Okay. In 1970, when I was 20 years old, I was a junior at Cornell University. I was studying industrial engineering, and I was playing on their lightweight football team. And in a game against Columbia University, I broke my neck and damaged my spinal cord making a tackle on a kickoff. As a result, I'm a quadriplegic. I'm almost totally paralyzed from the shoulders down. I spent the next nine months and 20 days in various hospitals and rehabilitation centers before I was able to return to school. I was fortunate that with help from my family, personal care attendants, and my fellow classmates, I returned to Cornell University, where I completed my undergraduate degree in industrial engineering.
 
 Ken Kunken [00:04:17]:
 I became the first quadriplegic to ever graduate from Cornell. But I knew industrial engineering really wasn't a viable field for me. This was well before laptop computers, and with my limited mobility, engineering just seemed like it would be really, really difficult for me to function in that role. So, with the advice of my psychology professor, I changed and pursued a career in psychology. So I stayed at Cornell, and I earned a Master of Arts degree, where I majored in counseling and student personnel administration. And I became the first quadriplegic to earn a graduate degree from Cornell. And then to increase my counseling credentials, I went to Columbia University, where I obtained my second master's degree. This was a master of Education degree, where I majored in psychological counseling and rehabilitation.
 
 Ken Kunken [00:05:17]:
 And I decided to look for a job as a rehabilitation counselor. And I was fairly confident that with two degrees from Cornell and one from Columbia, three prestigious Ivy League degrees, two master's degrees, that I shouldn't have too much difficulty securing employment. Well, to my dismay, no one would hire me. I looked for a job for over a year and sent out more than 200 resumes. I was even turned down, off to volunteer my services, because back then, it seemed everybody felt I was just too disabled to work. And finally, I found one organization willing to give me the opportunity to show what I could do. And that organization is on Long Island. It's called Abilities Incorporated, which is part of the Viscardi Center.
 
 Ken Kunken [00:06:14]:
 It's named after its founder, Dr. Henry Viscardi Jr. And they hired me to work as vocational rehabilitation counselor for other individuals who had severe disabilities.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:06:28]:
 That is a phenomenal story, but I know there's a little bit more to that that we'll talk about in a few minutes, but can you tell us how did your injuries change your view of yourself and what you thought your life Was going to be like, well.
 
 Ken Kunken [00:06:43]:
 It totally changed my view of myself. I mean, before I was injured, if somebody would have asked me to describe myself, I would have probably described myself as an athlete. Would have been the first thing I said. In high school, I was on the football team and the wrestling team. I played on various intramural softball teams. I worked during the summer as a lifeguard. And I probably would have said, and, oh, by the way, I was a fairly good student as well to get into Cornell. But I thought of myself first as an athlete.
 
 Ken Kunken [00:07:22]:
 So suddenly, here I am with very limited movement in my body and have to totally rely on my mind and not my physical abilities. So it totally changed my outlook of myself.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:07:38]:
 How did you learn to cope and live life? Because that's a question that I. I get all the time, and I don't know that I necessarily have a good answer. Even watched my father go through this process. So can you please give us some insights?
 
 Ken Kunken [00:07:53]:
 Sure. I mean, it took a long time to adjust to my new condition. I went from being very independent to being totally dependent on others for everything that I needed. So it took quite a while. But I was very fortunate that I had a very supportive family who encouraged me every step of the way, still assuring me that there was a lot I could do with my life. And they basically assured me that they would act as my arms and legs if need be, to make sure I could still do everything I wanted to do. And with that help, encouragement, and support, I was able to go back to school, continue my education, and eventually get a job.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:08:39]:
 How about friends? I've seen this happen in people's lives and probably in your life and my life is that a friend that I thought was a friend didn't turn out to be a friend, but I needed them. So other than your family, can you tell us, how did your friends deal with you and how did you deal with them in this changed circumstances?
 
 Ken Kunken [00:09:02]:
 Well, I had a number of close friends from high school who stayed very close friends, and I was very fortunate with that. My friends in college, I had fraternity brothers and football teammates that, of course, I was very friendly with, and they remained friends of mine. But I have to say that many of those individuals I related in terms of being an athlete and playing ball with them, playing sports with them. Now, it was a very different relationship because we were relating on very different levels. You know, no longer were we talking about, you know, what it was like to go out on the practice field or play in a game. We were talking more about schoolwork and what it was like with after school activities. So it really had to change a lot with my relationship to a lot of people. And I always thought of myself as a bit of an introvert.
 
 Ken Kunken [00:10:01]:
 Before I was injured, I used to sit in the very back of a classroom, never raise my hand in class and hope I wouldn't be noticed. And now suddenly, out of necessity, I was usually sitting in front of the front row in many classes and had to talk for making sure that every one of my needs was satisfied. And it really changed the way I had to look at myself as well as the way I was dealing with others.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:10:33]:
 Which leads me to the next question. How did you learn to deal with people's perception of you and not the reality of you?
 
 Ken Kunken [00:10:44]:
 Well, it certainly took a while and it was a very slow process. But I remember not long after I returned to school, I went to a fraternity party and I was talking with some of my old fraternity brothers and one of them commented, after speaking to me for a while, he said, you're still the same Old was my nickname meaning. After he spoke with me for a while, he realized I'm the same person. My disability didn't change me as a person, so it took a while to be again doing stuff, basically talking with others as opposed to physically doing things with others. But I tried to keep a pleasant attitude, a sunny disposition, and not to depress people with what my problems were, but rather still have a good time with the people I was with.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:11:40]:
 Obviously you have, I'm going to put this in quotes, a physical disability. A lot of my clients also have what we call invisible disabilities. It might be fibromyalgia, it might be some sort of a chronic pain condition. And so people see them, but they don't appear to be disabled, yet they in fact are disabled. Do you have any suggestions for a person who suffers from chronic pain or another medical condition that isn't visible, but yet they have to deal with people's perception of them?
 
 Ken Kunken [00:12:15]:
 Well, what if it affects the way that they function in life? I think it's important to share that with people that you feel confident would keep any type of confidences that you have in sharing so that people understand if there's something physically you cannot do because it's either very uncomfortable or painful or just physically not doable that they be aware of it so that they don't put you in awkward situations. But by the same token, I think it's important when you get a close friend to let them know exactly what your likes and dislikes are what your condition might limit you from doing, but also enable you to still enjoy doing so that you can have a more fulfilling relationship with others.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:13:08]:
 Sometimes my clients will tell me, particularly in fibromyalgia cases, that their family or friends just don't understand their fatigue levels and their need or their brain fog, that people will say, well, you know, if you just slept more or if you exercised or if you did this, you wouldn't be in this pain. You wouldn't have the brain fog. What suggestions do you have for people who have that sort of experience, if you will, when someone doesn't necessarily believe them or makes suggestions that really aren't consistent with the nature of their medical condition and yet are well meaning?
 
 Ken Kunken [00:13:52]:
 You know, I would get that all the time with my condition, but there were so many people that would think if you just believed strong enough, you'll be able to move your arms and your legs. You know, perhaps if you were more religious, you know, and had more faith, somehow you'd be able to do that. And it's very difficult to convince people that, no, I have a medical condition that basically inhibits and prohibits me from being able to do that. And, you know, many people, they don't want to accept that because they want to think everything is going to be better and get better, and they would like to make it so if they could. So it's difficult to sometimes convince people, but sometimes just being with them more and showing them what the issues are that you face, hopefully people will not only become more accepting, but you'll make the decision who you want to spend time with and what you want to do with others and you.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:14:57]:
 That's a great point. Because at some point in time, they're going to have to decide whether this relationship is worth maintaining because of and ultimately what I would consider disrespect, if you will, not respecting the individual's needs. Any thoughts about that? You know, having to say this relationship isn't working anymore?
 
 Ken Kunken [00:15:23]:
 Absolutely. I mean, you need to pick your friends, you need to pick the time you want to spend time with, because sometimes they can bring you down. If you're with a group that's not appropriate for you and your needs and your desires and your wants. And sometimes they put undue pressure on you, and you need to find a group of people that you are confident that you can be with and be yourself and enjoy being with it. And it has to do also with finding your own support group, people that, you know, you could rely on for any help that you may need and any encouragement you may need. And I think the longer you're in your condition, the more you'll find what people are truly your friends and truly people you could rely on and want to spend time with. That won't bring you down, but rather will elevate your spirits and you'll also find people that you can help in the process. And that makes a big difference in how you'll feel about yourself.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:16:27]:
 So, Ken, I'm going to ask you one more question before we take a break. What advice would you give to someone who has a life changing medical condition or injury as they're dealing with not only the consequences of their medical condition treatment, but their changed role in view of themselves?
 
 Ken Kunken [00:16:49]:
 That it's a very gradual process. You know, while your condition may have changed overnight, for some people, it's minded it doesn't mean your way of dealing with it is going to change overnight. It could be a very long process. But hopefully you'll make steady progress in learning how to adjust to your disability, learning what makes you feel good, what are your limitations, how you can overcome them if you are able to and not be impatient. And I believe everybody has an inner strength about them, something that they never realized they had that just enables them to rise to the situation and overcome what many people may think are insurmountable odds. And I think once you set your mind to it and believe in yourself and believe there's still an awful lot you can do, even though you may have certain limitations, I think you'll feel better about yourself and you'll convey a more positive image to others about yourself.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:17:58]:
 Wow. Let's take a quick break and I'm looking forward to coming back and talking with Ken about vocational insights, transitioning careers, and how you even ended up in law school. So let's take a quick break.
 
 Ken Kunken [00:18:15]:
 Great.
 
 Speaker C [00:18:18]:
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 Nancy Cavey [00:18:58]:
 Welcome back to Winning Isn't Easy. We're here with our special guest, Ken. Ken, you in your transition indicated that you got a degree in vocational services and actually worked as a vocational rehabilitation counselor. And obviously I see that. I've seen that in My workers compensation career and in my long term disability career. What vocational insights do you have for someone who has had a. A career ending type of medical condition?
 
 Ken Kunken [00:19:37]:
 Well, one, I think you want to keep your options open. You want to look into whether there are careers out there where your limitations will not pose as big an obstacle as maybe the career you thought you'd be pursuing or were pursuing at the time. There are so many different career options out there. And I think what you need to do is take a long, hard look at what your strengths are, where your abilities lie, but also where your limitations are. Obviously, try to make the most of your strengths.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:20:13]:
 How do you suggest they go about finding a vocational rehabilitation counselor who can help them with the testing aptitude and interest testing, helping them identify a career path, and then giving them advice as to actually how to engage in that career path as they're doing their studies or doing, you know, on the job training type things?
 
 Ken Kunken [00:20:40]:
 Okay, well, if it's somebody with a disability, oftentimes they will have a counselor from what may be called the Office of Vocational Rehabilitation. Sometimes it's called Access in New York State is what that agency is called. Different states have different names for it. And usually you'll have a counselor that you can confer with and they either can give you aptitude tests or just in further discussions with them, they could make certain suggestions. There are also different rehab agencies that they can either refer you to or you can investigate on your own, where they're vocational counselors that can help guide you into different careers you may never have even thought about.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:21:29]:
 In the world of long term disability. Many times in a disability insurance policy, the disability carrier will offer vocational services. And that can be problematic because many times I think what they're actually trying to do is to look for a reason to deny or terminate benefits, particularly when there's a transition from an inability to do your own occupation to an inability to do any occupation. Any thoughts about that sort of situation where the insurance company or the disability plan has an incentive to offer those services, but yet at the end of the day, their motive is not necessarily beneficial to you?
 
 Ken Kunken [00:22:15]:
 You know, I actually ran into that quite a bit. I changed career goals a number of times, as I indicated. I started where I obtained a degree in engineering, but decided it wasn't viable for me. And I pursued a career in counseling, which I enjoyed very much. But during my career in counseling, I was frustrated by the limitations that I felt were placed on me in terms of what I could do with my counseling degrees as well as Finances what I could eventually earn. And I spoke at a number of meetings before groups and organizations concerning issues related to disability, whether it be non discrimination or affirmative action concerning people with disabilities. And after my talks, I'd often be asked questions. And while I do my best to answer those questions, I was always very careful to caution.
 
 Ken Kunken [00:23:15]:
 The question is, they should really consult with a lawyer about their concerns. And I guess it didn't take long before I started to think there's no reason why I couldn't become that lawyer. So I decided to leave my job and go to law school. And I contacted the Office of Vocational Rehabilitation to see if they would help with some funding for law school, and they would not do that. They indicated that we provided funding to help you to get the degrees that you obtained and that you could continue to work in that field so we no longer consider you vocationally disabled. And as a result, they would not give me any funding to go to law school. They did not encourage me to leave my job or to go. But I felt there was still more I could do, and I had to take that initiative to say, you know, I appreciate what you've done with me in the past, but I believe there's still more that I could do and that I wanted to do with my life, and I had to do it on my own.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:24:24]:
 So let's talk about transitioning careers twice because you went from engineering to vocational rehabilitation and rehabilitation to law school. What was different, if anything, the second time you went through this transition, then the first time?
 
 Ken Kunken [00:24:42]:
 Well, there are a number of things. For one, my interest changed. You know, I was really started being interested in doing something only that had to do with mathematics. You know, that's where my strength was in my math ability. Suddenly I was switching to a field that was more verbal and relied on more verbal skills rather than my being able to calculate certain things. And I had the encouragement of a psychology professor who felt that was something I could do in that area and hopefully do well. And then after working for a few years as a counselor, which I enjoyed immensely, I was frustrated because I felt there was still more I could do. And I had an older brother who was a lawyer.
 
 Ken Kunken [00:25:28]:
 He was a criminal lawyer. He was working as a defense attorney. And I used to watch him in court and think, you know what? That not only looks very interesting, but it looked like something I felt I could do as well. So I decided to do that. And, you know, I think part of it was my feeling that not to set limited expectations for people. I think people's performance often rises and falls based upon what others expect of them. And if they expect more from you, you'll do more with your life. And if you expect more from yourself, you'll do more.
 
 Ken Kunken [00:26:07]:
 And I felt that once I was working as a rehab counselor, that increased my self esteem, my feelings of self worth, and my self confidence to give me the confidence to say there's more I can still do, and I want to do that and pursue my dreams.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:26:26]:
 So, Ken, having been a vocational rehabilitation counselor, can you tell us what suggestions you would have for someone who wants to work with a vocational rehabilitation counselor? What should they expect? What should their goals be? How do they know if that ve really has their best interests at heart?
 
 Ken Kunken [00:26:49]:
 Well, I think most people would have their best interests at heart if they went into that field. But I think a lot of it has to do with somebody doing some serious self reflection and examining where their abilities are, what their limitations are, how they can overcome those limitations to pursue where their interests are and decide whether those interests match those abilities and whether it would be viable to go into the field that they think they're interested in. But I would also say that just because something has not been done before doesn't mean you cannot do it now. You know, if you have that strong desire and motivation to achieve. And I'm not saying, you know, don't have unrealistic goals and desires, but realistically set high goals for yourself. You know, work harder. I think if you believe in yourself, you'll work harder to achieve those goals and make them realistic.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:27:57]:
 So you talked a little bit about how you ended up going to law school. Did law school meet your expectations, or was it the reality of law where you really met your expectations?
 
 Ken Kunken [00:28:14]:
 Actually, it did meet my expectations. I was really encouraged and enjoyed the challenges of law school. I felt I learned a lot about not only functioning as a lawyer, but thinking as a lawyer. And I thought that opened a lot of doors to me. And I thought once I became a lawyer, people started treating me a little differently as well. People would often come into a room and when they see me before I went to law school and start talking to the person next to me as if I couldn't speak for myself or wasn't even in the room. And suddenly they hear I'm a lawyer, and they look at you very differently, and they speak and address you very differently. And I think it changed a lot of when my outlook on dealing with the issues and problems that may result that I encounter, but also on the way people interacted with me.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:29:16]:
 Can you tell us a little bit more about your legal career, what you did, and what satisfaction you found in the practice of law?
 
 Ken Kunken [00:29:25]:
 Sure. You know, to tell you a little bit, I was able to complete law school in the standard three year time period. And I passed a very difficult New York State bar exam the first time that I took it.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:29:38]:
 Congratulations.
 
 Ken Kunken [00:29:40]:
 Thank you. And I was very fortunate to be hired as a Nassau County Assistant District attorney because the district attorney at the time, Dennis Dillon, was a very self confident, progressive individual who placed his hiring decision on my abilities rather than my disability. So he hired me to work as an assistant district attorney. And I began by going through a very intensive four week training program where they taught us all aspects of trial techniques from a prosecutor's perspective. And I very proudly went to court my first day and I couldn't fit through the swinging doorways in the courtroom. They were too narrow to allow me to get through in my electric wheelchair to get to the prosecutor's table. But after, you know, widening the doorways and working very hard, I became a very competent trial attorney. And in fact, not long after I started doing trials in our district court bureau, I was approached by a defense attorney who told me he overheard some of the prisoners talking about me in the pens behind the courtroom.
 
 Ken Kunken [00:30:53]:
 And apparently they were saying that I was a really tough ADA Assistant District attorney and they hoped they didn't get the guy in the wheelchair as their prosecutor. So I started developing a good reputation. I did a lot of litigation and in fact, I was promoted a number of times where I eventually became one of our deputy bureau chiefs, our county court trial bureau, when now I was supervising more than 25 other assistant district attorneys.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:31:25]:
 That's a fantastic story. Can you tell us a little bit more about how changing your careers from a vocational rehabilitation counselor to a lawyer changed not only your. Well, let's start out with your view of yourself. Obviously, you courageously dealt with the injury that you had. I'm sure it was not easy. I'm sure there was a lot of introspection on your part. But you came to a point, I think, where you must have decided, I'm moving forward. But life is not a series of, you know, not a straight path, it's zigzags.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:32:09]:
 Can you. So can you tell us a little bit more about the zigzags, if you will?
 
 Ken Kunken [00:32:13]:
 Well, basically, I had to believe in myself. You know, I had to change my self image and believe that, yes, I did have a pretty good mind. You know, I was intelligent enough to navigate the world in my condition and not only survive, but succeed in what I was doing. And I found that people valued my opinions and what I was doing and saying. And the fact that I was able to go out there and not only help others as a rehab counselor, but eventually be in a position where I was supervising other attorneys, it really increased my feelings of self confidence. So much so that I think whenever people met me after that, they can see a different air about me, a different way that I, you know, acted and treated individuals and reacted to things that were going on in my life.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:33:16]:
 You know, we as lawyers, I think, have the respect of the community and ultimately expect that we're going to be respected. Would you agree with that? And to what extent do you think that helped you become the lawyer that you became?
 
 Ken Kunken [00:33:35]:
 Well, it helped me convince myself first, and then others as well, that I needed to be treated as a respected member of society, regardless of what my physical limitations were. Right. That I could still compete with anybody else and still do well, as long as I worked hard, tried my best, continued to improve, and wasn't afraid to take chances or make difficult decisions. And I think it really changed a lot about the way I felt about myself. You know, I might add that before I was injured, there really weren't many role models that I could look to and say, you know what, these types of things have been done before, so therefore I could do it. There may have been role models out there. I just wasn't aware of them because you didn't see a lot of people back in the 1970s out in public who used wheelchairs, who didn't have the use of their arms as well. And I think that's changed a lot thanks to the Americans with Disabilities Act.
 
 Ken Kunken [00:34:45]:
 And I think that helps a lot of people realize there's so much people can do when given the opportunity.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:34:53]:
 I. I'm going to ask you a hard question, and that is, in your life's journey, dealing with your changed circumstances, what mistakes did you make that you would like to tell people about? And I'm. Mistakes may not be the right word, but, you know, turning points or maybe actual mistakes or what are your thoughts about that?
 
 Ken Kunken [00:35:20]:
 Well, you know, there are a lot of decisions that I made that may not have been the best decisions at the time, but I worked very hard to make them the right decisions. For example, when I was finally discharged from the hospital, I went back to Cornell, and this was 20 years before the Americans with Disabilities act took effect. There was not one ramp or curb cut on the entire campus. Now, at the time. That may not have been the wisest decision for me to go there, but I made it work. You know, my first day of classes, I had to be either pulled up or bounced down close to 100 steps.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:36:03]:
 Wow.
 
 Ken Kunken [00:36:03]:
 Just to attend my first day. So I'm lying in bed after that day thinking, what was I thinking making this kind of decision and going back to Cornell at the time. But I worked hard to make that the right decision, and I'm glad that I did it, and I'm glad that I was able to complete my education at Cornell, both undergraduate and graduate, and go on from there. So I think a lot of it has to do with once you do, examine the pros and cons of each decision, deciding what you believe is the right decision, and then working hard to make it work.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:36:43]:
 So, Kim, my last question is, what lessons did you learn? And what would you say to someone who has just dealt with either a catastrophic injury or an injury or a medical condition that has changed their life's trajectory?
 
 Ken Kunken [00:37:01]:
 That it takes time. That, you know, don't make any real difficult or drastic decisions. You know, very shortly after your injury or your new condition, sometimes you have to live with it for a while and gradually, gradually find ways of dealing with it in the ways that will make you feel good about yourself. And I think hopefully you'll have the support and encouragement from family or friends around you to help you deal with it. But you need to believe in yourself, and you need to convince yourself that you can do whatever you set your mind to. And while you need to be realistic, you also have to be convinced that just because something has not been done before doesn't mean you cannot do it yourself. And I think you get a lot of personal satisfaction in knowing you can still help others, no matter what your condition is. And once you devote your life to helping others, it makes you feel better about yourself as well.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:38:09]:
 Wow. Thank you so much, Ken. To our audience. I hope that you've enjoyed this week's episode of Winning Isn't Easy. Ken brought a lot of great insights and information to us. If you've enjoyed this episode, please like our page, leave a review, share it with your family and friends, and please subscribe to this podcast. That way, you'll be notified every time a new episode such as this one, comes out. I want to give a special thanks to our guest, Ken for joining us today, and I hope you tune in next week for another insightful episode of Winning Isn't Easy.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:38:43]:
 Thanks.
 
 Ken Kunken [00:38:43]:
 Thank you.
 
 Nancy Cavey [00:38:52]:
 Sa.